This is a great conversation that Michael Chan a.k.a. Chantastic and Nick Taylor had on Nick's Twitch stream before diving into live coding with Storybook and Chromatic.
They discuss remote work life, the pandemic, community, Storybook origins, why components are so great, and why Storybook and Chromatic are a great fit for building out UI.
Links:
This is a great conversation that Michael Chan a.k.a. Chantastic and Nick Taylor had on Nick's Twitch stream before diving into live coding with Storybook and Chromatic.
They discuss remote work life, the pandemic, community, Storybook origins, why components are so great, and why Storybook and Chromatic are a great fit for building out UI.
Links:
Hey folks, we are back at iamdeveloper.com live. That's the new tagline. I'm switching it up. My name's Nick Taylor, your host, and I'm hanging out with Chan today. Chan, how you doing?
Chantastic:Hey, what's up? I'm doing really good. Thanks for having me on. It's it's fun to actually get to hang out with you cuz we've, I think we've hung out in like, I think the last time I remember hanging out was like at a conference online type of thing.
Nick Taylor:Yeah.
Chantastic:We're talking about Suspense maybe, or something like that.
Nick Taylor:I'm trying to remember which one it was. I don't know if it was, Is it, Did Reactathon have a virtual or
Chantastic:I feel like it was even before, Yeah, maybe it was. When was that? Maybe it was like last year's, like React Advanced or something.
Nick Taylor:Oh yeah, maybe it was that. Yeah.
Chantastic:I feel like it was like winter or like fall, winter time.
Nick Taylor:I remember you were just running a room there and then you're like, "Hey, anybody want to come say hi?". So I was just like, Hey.
Chantastic:It was nice. It was good to, you know, you see all the, meet all these people online in like low fidelity, which is like an avatar and like, you know, whatever they're, you know, putting out online and it's really nice.
Nick Taylor:Yeah.
Chantastic:When you get to actually like, hang out in a room with somebody and talk and get some, you know, texture of, you know, whatever they look and act like and it's.
Nick Taylor:Yeah, no, for sure. I definitely hear ya. And we had our offsite for Netlify recently, which was in Hawaii, which was awesome. But it was, you know, it to go another level. It was, it was really nice meeting a lot of my coworkers in, in person. Obviously, you know, COVID's still around but good old pandemic, but it was still great to see everybody. I know a lot of people probably know who you are, but for folks that, cuz I know we get all walks of life coming in, checking out the stream, so some people just starting out their career so they might not know who you are. So if maybe give the TLDR of who you are.
Chantastic:Yeah, for sure. My name is Michael Chan. I go by Chantastic on the internet. I think probably my biggest claim to fame is, I had a podcast called React Podcast. I did that pretty diligently weekly for, two and a half years maybe. And, you know, things happened and, it became really difficult to, to produce after that. I kind of have some like, I guess maybe like older energy. So I think that there's not a lot of stuff that I've done recently that people who are like newer into this field would know about. I love podcasting. I love like live stuff. I've been trying to do a little bit more on YouTube, these days get some of the things that I've learned over the last, I don't know, 15 plus years doing this stuff, like outta my head and,
Nick Taylor:Yeah.
Chantastic:And onto a page somewhere.
Nick Taylor:That's how I came to know you originally was, through the React podcast, which is a great podcast if, if folks have never checked it out, even just listening the old catalog, it's, it's really great.
Chantastic:Thanks.
Nick Taylor:I know nowadays, I'm in your Discord. I'm more of a lurker in the Discord, but you run, it's, it's called lunch.dev, right? Is that right?
Chantastic:Yeah, yeah, yeah. The easiest way to get there is if you go to Discord dot G G slash lunch dev. I'm gonna be reworking the website, but the lunch dev site goes to some old courses that I have sold. Really great community over there. We have like a ton of really, awesome people. I have really enjoyed that space. It kind of like started to grow at the time that, like React podcast was on the downturn. Just really awesome people there. One of my favorite things is just that, you know, there's a lot of, hyperbole and anger and hype and, you know, this versus that online in the Twitter space.
Nick Taylor:Yeah.
Chantastic:And it's really nice to have like a lot of that happening and then have a space to come back to and be like, Okay, let's actually talk about this, like humans. What do these, you know, technologies or these movements or kind of like, what, what does the hype actually mean for like, our real life? I really love that. And there's a ton of really, creative people in there, you know, a lot of people who you know are, are in our collective circle, like, Ben Meyers ajcwebdev, Anthony who's in chat right now looks like, Hey, what's up Anthony? Shout out.
Nick Taylor:Yeah. Yeah.
Chantastic:And so it's really been a really fun, Lindsay Wardell, like really fun place to just kind of learn how to do creative things, like learn how to stream for the first time, learn, test out ideas of like, Oh, hey, does, does this thumbnail like work? Like, would you click on it? Like, all that kind of stuff. So I, I love that space. It's super low key and it's just some of my favorite people in the industry right now are there, and it's just fun to go through a work week, with people that you, like, and want to have like a casual kind of not workplace relationship with, like, I love that about, community Discords.
Nick Taylor:I hear you. I love my work and my coworkers were awesome, but it's nice to have other spaces too, for sure. I met Anthony through streaming actually, when I was doing the dev.to stream. He came on a couple times, I believe, and he's been on this stream now. Anthony's super cool dude and super knowledgeable, even though he hasn't been in the space that long, from what he's told me, kind of blew up on the scene.
Chantastic:Yeah. It's so awesome. Big, big shout. Anthony's like all over the place. I freaking love it.
Nick Taylor:Yeah, I was listening to, is it the Modern Web podcast yesterday? Cause I go for like a long walk at nighttime just to kind of, you know, since we sit down all day. I was listening to Modern, I think it's Modern Dot Web Dev or it's one that, Tracy Lee's company runs. He was talking frameworks with a friend of his, I think Chris and Tracy and a few other people was, and it was, it was good, good chat. So it's, uh, yeah, it's nice seeing, I don't know, it's, you know, the pandemic's been rough for a lot of folks. Yeah. Anthony dropped it there. Yeah, there was hot takes in it too. One thing that I think that's been cool about the pandemic, if you can find a cool aspect of a pandemic, is just a lot of people started doing stuff like streaming, more podcasts, just, just hanging out. Anytime I've asked somebody, Hey, you wanna come do this thing? They're like, Yeah, sure. You know, it's like, you know what? Not what else do I have to do? But like, I think pandemic just made people just come, at least the people I've been with. That's, I feel like people have come a lot closer. I joined like a Virtual Coffee community, which I have some good friends there now. I still hope the pandemic, uh, goes away, uh, soon , but, you know.
Chantastic:It's, it is really interesting like that, that I totally agree with you. That is one of the great things that came out of this. Or it's a, it's a good side effect, Right. You know, whatever the impetus ended up being, like, I really appreciate the side effect, which is, we got a lot more comfortable having on line relationships. It's at the point now where it's like, I don't really remember who, I haven't actually met in person now because , you know, those relationships have been like so well fleshed out. That's a really interesting shift, and I think that there's something, especially in tech where jobs change so rapidly, you know, communities, like you said, like, you know, Virtual Coffee, like Discord communities, all that kind of stuff becomes so critical because like, those are your, like long term relationships in your long term workplace relationships, right? It's not really happening on LinkedIn, and it's definitely not happening on Twitter where you actually develop meaningful relationships. It's happening in these Discords where it's like you actually can have a conversation with somebody, get introduced to people that you didn't know by virtue of like being in, someone else's space. You know, just that like linkability too, right? You'd said lunch dev is a channel that you lurk in. And I do the same thing for a, a bunch of other servers, but like that linkability to be able to be like, Oh yeah, like, you know, Nick's in here. Like, we can mention him and just kind of like, you know, get him in the conversation. That kind of stuff is so cool. You can actually feel and see the, network effects. And I freaking love it. I love it.
Nick Taylor:Yeah. No, for sure. And the thing I always say to people too is, you'd be a lot more surprised than you realize, like, how many people really wanna help you or really want you to win. You know, like, sure there's yeah crappy people on the internet, but like, and I say this also being a white guy in tech, so I know I have a lot of privilege, but, I've just met so many awesome people and, I've helped out some people, they've helped me out or, or you know, just being friends, you know, it doesn't always have to be about take, take, take or, you know, so it's like, uh, I don't know. I've just found it's been pretty awesome and like, you know, I've been working remote since before the pandemic and, I don't about you. I, I would to guess it's the same sentiment, but I'm imagining you probably don't wanna work in an office. Or maybe I could be wrong there, I'm just kind of done with it. I think.
Chantastic:Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. It was an interesting shift because I think I am a homebody type of person. I don't have a lot of need to leave the house. I like the work from home thing, however, it through the height of the pandemic, we did have like, you know, our small little family did have like this new mode of having to learn how to operate together. And so I have found, and again, I mean this is like an incredible privilege, but, so working at Chromatic, because it's a fully distributed company, they have offered to pay for a coworking space for me. So I have you know, a small desk at a co-working space nearby. And that has been like the dream setup for me. It's like at being able to have a place that is like fully separated from both workplace water cooler stuff and separated from home like, Hey, can you get me a snack? Or like, Oh, hey, I found this like, cool TikTok. Separated from both of those things where you can just like go and like jam out work for a little bit and then go back into those other modes. It's like freaking awesome.
Nick Taylor:Co-working space I can definitely see, I, I, I just, you know, cuz like you can go whenever you want. For me it was more like, I'm. In a big city in Canada. So Montreal, like when I used to commute, I'd walk to the train or take a bus to the train and then I'd take the train and where I live.
Chantastic:Yeah.
Nick Taylor:It's like it would take me about an hour to get there. And then an hour back and then if I wanted to go to the gym, I was doing it at my lunch hour and stuff. And yeah, so like there's a lot of time lost, you know, And I am a sociable person, so it's, it's not like I, it's cuz I didn't want to hang out with people, but. Working from home now it's like, like this morning, like Monday, Wednesday, Fridays I workout in the morning. So I'm up at like six 15 and then I'm working out at seven. I'm done at like eight o'clock. My kids are up going to school, and then like I can start my day and I haven't lost two hours yet. For me that stuff's kind of game changer for me at least. But I still go meet old coworkers or friends for drinks or coffee, cuz like you still want see people obviously. I, I found, I found for me, like it's been a great balance that I haven't looked into a co-working space yet, but I know there, there are some folks here that I know that do do that as well. So it could be something I look at in the future maybe.
Chantastic:It's interesting like how much time you get back when you don't have to spend so much time on the road. Like that was kind of like huge, like feeling that for the first time of like, oh my gosh, like. You know, especially like traffic, you know, like everybody's on the road like that time of day and, and you know, using public transportation, you avoid a little bit of that, but you're still probably like stuffed into a like tube with a bunch of people like that. You don't want to be stuffed into a tube with. Yeah. I I totally, I totally hear you. It's having the options is like a really, nice, privilege and, and luxury and I'm really glad that we kind of have been thrust into the future of remote work that kind of looked a lot further
Nick Taylor:Yeah.
Chantastic:Away, uh, two and a half, three years ago.
Nick Taylor:I find it just gives me back some time to stuff for stuff. I can meet my daughter after school and pick her up, like it's not too far away, you know, It was before if I was commuting and that, that just wouldn't happen. Or I'd have to leave super early and then I would be working in the evening late, you know? So like, it's, there's a lot of things it brings, I think. I know I do have other people though that they, they like doing the hybrid being in an office still too, and I'm like, not gonna judge anybody, obviously. It's like, if that's what works for them, go for it. So.
Chantastic:Oh, totally. Yeah. Some people need that space. I don't mean that in, a good or bad kind of way. It's just like different people, operate differently and it, I know that this has been a really hard time for a lot of people in the same way that it's been
Nick Taylor:Oh, yeah, Yeah.
Chantastic:Maybe. A, a better working environment for, uh, the two of us.
Nick Taylor:Yeah. No, no, for sure. It's not, I mean, we're, I, I think we're pretty lucky in tech too. You know, like, like we don't, you know, like our job does not literally require us to physically be wherever. The job is, you know, and I know that's not everybody, so I realize that too. If you can, I, I just find it's better.
Chantastic:Oh, it's great. It's great. I love it. I love it.
Nick Taylor:Well, speaking of that, that's a good segue to talk about like, Hey, what are we gonna talk about today? So,, Chantastic: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you, are you working at Chromatic right now or are you like an advocate for the, like, I, I don't, I'm not really sure how you fit into the puzzle there.
Chantastic:Yeah, no, no, no, no, that's fine. Um, actually it's, you know, it's, it's really interesting and that we could, we could talk about that for a really long time, but I will, I will just answer the question. So I work, for Chromatic, Chromatic is a software company that offers a service that integrates with Storybook and we also build and maintain Storybook. We, kind of use the business to fund the open source development. We have, a number of, I think maybe four or five full-time people dedicated to making sure that Storybook continues to progress, adopts new frameworks and features and, bundlers and all that kind of stuff, so that we can continue to support, the really big community of people who are using it to build, incredible user experiences. I work for them and my job is to help, educate people in the, ways of Storybook and Chromatic. And so I'm still kind of coming up to speed on that. Every day I feel like I'm learning new features. I actually came to, you know, Chromatic and Storybook, from my last job. I was, a frontend architect for a handful of years at my last company. And, we had a really interesting challenge where we had, we were building like a white label framework, UI framework that needed to support, 10 discrete applications that were individually themed. And were, we were moving towards all of them having like a light and dark and high and low contrast modes. So that's a, a lot of variations, for this, framework to have. Yeah, Yeah. Lots. And so I actually did a talk recently, both, at React Advanced and then kind of more in depth at Reactathon, talking about like how that actually multiplies out, when you have, just a UI component, but then it has like multiple variations. It's themeable and you have, you know, multiple contrast modes and all that stuff. Like how quickly just one component can be like tens of thousands of possible states, like very quickly.
Nick Taylor:Yeah. Yeah.
Chantastic:Which is kind of insane. And I think that like a lot of, front end developers survive by just not thinking about it. We're like, Well, you know, like if there's a problem, it'll just kind of like raise up to the surface and, you know, we'll, we'll deal with it then. But when we actually like, multiply the problem out, there's just so many, there's such a huge surface area for bugs. I came to Chromatic and Storybook because I really needed a way to help bring the designers and front end developers together in a place where we could say like, Oh no, this actually did break all of these things. Right? And it's not because someone has some secret knowledge about like, Oh, there's this weird edge case in this browser and like, whatever. But because there was a robot ran a visual snapshot between these two things, and we can actually see how it changed and have a conversation about it. I think I had gotten really tired of being the person who held all of the keys to like, Oh, well, you know, if you change that, then that's gonna break this app integration over here. And you know, like there's this weird edge case that we're trying to support for IE. But just in there. And so like, yeah, I know that you don't have that use case. So you're not worried about it, but we, you know, as this kind of like baseline framework, we have to think about it because of this one product that's like public facing. Like, and so I just got so tired of being the person who had to keep all of that in my head. That I was looking, I was eager, desperate for solutions like Chromatic and Storybook. When that, that role came to an end, I had already developed some relationships with, the people over there and I was like, you know what? It would be kind of fun to work on all of the design systems. So let's, uh, let's do this thing. Nick Taylor: No, that's super cool. That's super cool. I, yeah, I, uh, I came across Storybook in 2017. I think that this is like giving a bit of history here, but I don't, I used to use Meteor js. I don't know if you ever ended up using that. Yeah.
Nick Taylor:So Meteor.Js was like, for folks, depending on how long you've been doing web dev, it was like universal JavaScript. So like you write server and client side, and then there was pieces that you could use on both. And the, it was a really cool thing at the time, everything was JavaScript. So the database was Mongo.
Chantastic:Yeah.
Nick Taylor:So JSON or whatever. And then there was, what's his name? He started, he started Storybook, His name's escaping me at the moment. He ended up working at Vercel eventually, and then he is doing his own thing again, doing teaching, but
Chantastic:Oh, interesting.
Nick Taylor:Storybook started as something kind of in that Meteor era. And I, I don't, Yeah, think it was tightly integrated to Meteor, but it was just like, because the React was being used, so yeah, it's gonna bother me what his name is. I'll find it later but anyways, yeah. And then I think at some point I, the evolution, like Meteor's still around, I think, but they became Apollo, like Apollo GraphQL.
Chantastic:Yes.
Nick Taylor:I think just doing my fact checking here, make sure I got
Chantastic:Yeah. No, no, no. You're, you're absolutely right. Yeah.
Nick Taylor:Yeah. And then like, Storybook itself, it became its own thing and it was still open source. And then I think Dominic, who you work with and
Chantastic:Yes.
Nick Taylor:Uh, I forget who else, but I, I think they kind of became the stewards, like the maintainers of it. And then I guess that's how Chromatic came to be eventually. Or
Chantastic:You got, you, you got so much of it, right? Yeah. There's, so Dom is, my manager of the DX team. And then, I think Norbert and Schulman, or Michael Schulman, were two of the, two of the people who were kind of stewarding, Storybook at the, the time. And so then, okay, they all gathered together and like, Hey, let's, you know, really dedicate to this open source product. Let's build a service around it. And so then, you know, Chromatic came after that as a tightly integrated thing. But yeah, it's really interesting. There was a huge amount of potential energy in Meteor, and it didn't end up being the thing that people wanted it to be, but it's really interesting to see how much potential energy there was in the, the ideas and the products that were made at that time, and how they spun off into like, you know, very successful other products.
Nick Taylor:I dropped in the chat, but I found it, cause it, I didn't, I Googled it and it, it showed up on the Storybook docs, but it, uh, yeah, there was a, a company called Kadira and it was Arunoda. That's who it was. Yeah. Anyways, just giving a little shout to Arunoda cuz he did a lot, he did a bunch of stuff for Meteor as well, but yeah. Cool, cool. Norbert and Michael Schulman, I haven't spoken to them, but, we follow each other on Twitter now I think. So it's just like, yeah, it's kind of cool. There's a, like a lot of stuff's been going on. I know we're gonna, we're gonna jump into something soon, but, there's been a lot of changes to the Storybook over the years in a good way. I think at least. When it originally came out it was cuz Webpack was, came on to the scene I think maybe 2014 or I think Webpack really got accelerated cuz of React honestly. Cuz before that it was like Browserify. Storybook was using web pack and had been using web. For quite a long time, as far as I know, and I mm-hmm., uh, when I was at dev.to still, I, I, I'm not positive with the version. I think it's like Storybook six. You started introducing other bundlers, is that right? Or?
Chantastic:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. So we now have, vite support. There's still a handful of features that we're continuing to deeply integrate, so if we do a demo today, I'll, we'll probably use webpac just because it's the most stable and we've actually done a huge amount of work to get some of the components, like just in time so that the Webpack version of it actually competes pretty favorably with vite. Integrating more bundlers is a really important thing. I think two of the big things that we've wanted to solve over the last year, and I say we, but I mean the Storybook engineers that are actually doing the hard work here. This is like Tom Coleman, Yon Braga, like Norbert, Michael Schulman. Hopefully I'm not missing anybody, but yeah, working on these problems both Chromatic and, and Storybook. But yeah, I know I'm gonna forget people and I feel bad about that, but it's just in this mode, it's kind of like you, you're like searching your mind and it's like, it's so cloudy. There's so many things I wanna talk about. I apologize right up front. What we're doing. Um, so like a handful of the big focuses that we've had this last year have been bringing more of the community into Storybook. So like vite has been huge and a lot of people love vite and we want to bring more availability of Storybook to vite. We have added a new bundler support and through that work it should be easier to do additional bundlers as new things start to come online now that it's kind of abstracted away a little bit. But then also it's like, uh, you know, through that there's a handful of other things, things that have that are helping us like do more. Something that I'm really excited about is we're working on this, feature that would allow anything that uses component story format. And we'll talk, we'll touch more on the details of that in just a little bit, but you'd mentioned it. Component story format is this way to write stories, and consequently tests, using just an ES module format, but then we do like a little bit of wiring up based on the file name to kind of like have some, like really nice like niceties. And the cool thing about that is very soon, anything that uses component story format. So like Ladle's one of these things that, is a, I mean, I guess like Storybook competitor, I'll just say like Storybook alternative. But it uses the same component story format to write stories in. And I think coming up
Nick Taylor:Okay.
Chantastic:Soon we're really hoping to release some features that would allow anything that uses component story format to integrate with Chromatic and get the benefit of visual regression testing. I mean, this is all kind of like a, you know, a little bit far away, but, I think it's important because I think it, it just kinda like shows like where we're going, like we want to bring more of the community into this way of development. And so I think there's a lot of things that feel like, or sound like competitors at the moment. But we are really hoping that it. To kind of like rally around this component story format as a way of declaratively documenting and testing components. And then kind of figuring out like what we can do, around that. You know, every community kind of has their own version of like what a Storybook looks like. And so I think, you know, more power to you, right? Like make it, you know, make a, you know, Svelte and vite and like whatever thing. But if you can kind of use this story format, then like you can still have like the benefit a lot of the tooling ecosystem of like add-ons and all that kind of stuff. So that's what we're working towards. Obviously these things just take a lot of time. But I think, yeah, you know, the more tools, the better. Our goal is to just improve the UX of the web and I think that there's so much innovation happening. There's no way that we could like be the kind of like gatekeepers of it all. So I'm just really excited that we're able to migrate the software to like meet some of, meet the community where it's going.. Nick Taylor: That's super cool. And, and it's great to work on a standard like that. I dropped a couple links to the component story format. Oh, cool. Thank you.
Nick Taylor:We'll get to the live coding in a minute, but the one thing I really wanna say that's really compelling about Storybook is when I was working at, I, I'd used it prior to working at dev dot two, but at dev dot two, the app and I, I know you've worked on a Rails app before too, but, it's like a monolithic Rails app and we were using Preact in the front end in kind of like a bespoke manner. And the fact that I put Storybook in place there before I was working there, cuz it's open source and I was so glad I did that because. You can literally build out these components without even running the entire Rails app. Like so, like, yes. You know, which is like huge, like that, that is like, like, like when you're in all Js land, maybe you don't necessarily feel that as much, but like just being able to say like, I don't even need like the database, anything. Like, I don't need anything running. I can literally just go to my canvas and start painting. You know? Like that to me is like such a huge thing.
Chantastic:Yeah, it's it like, it's good architecture, right? The benefit of components is their isolation, right? Like, they should be disconnected from data. We should be able to kind of like mock things very easily, as easily as just throwing an object at it and saying like, this is what a user data will look like when you eventually have it. But like, we don't need to like wire all of this test environment stuff up. And I think that that Rails, kind of analog is super important because so much of like, you know, I, I am a front end developer, right? Like, that's, that's how I identify. I've never been like a, you know, fullstack developer. Like I do enjoy kind of going into full stack sometimes for some of my own projects. But I love the front end side of things and
Nick Taylor:Yeah.
Chantastic:I was amazed, how every job I had really required me to be a full stack developer to like twiddle certain things or like, you know, change a database response or fix up the Rails environment or have these fake migrations to run, to get into, you know, certain states. And it's like I didn't want to deal with any of that nonsense, right? Like the beautiful thing about working with components is we can test them and document them separated from the full stack. And I think that's something that's like really cool is being able to visually test, as a test between a component and its integration with the browser without having to like bring along the full stack with it. That is really the superpower of this like Storybook, Chromatic pairing is because it feels so light compared to what we've had to do in the past on like just, doing front end stuff and like trying to maintain a Rails test environment. And how slow they were for like, visual tests. It's just like, it's just better. Nick Taylor: There's a question in do you keep your Storybook stories, the input to your components in Storybook up to date with the actual context in which the component will need to live slash be rendered? So I guess, within Storybook or in the real app, how can you kind of make guarantees. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That is interesting. TypeScript helps out a lot with this. So like if you are doing your componentry in TypeScript, then that will really provide a mechanism when you like update your component library and then like try to use it, you're gonna start getting errors inside of your code base where it lives to say like, Hey, this interface isn't compatible anymore. I think that if you aren't using TypeScript, you do have to be a little bit more, uh, vigilant about that. There's always gonna be some level of having to coordinate interface changes. I think TypeScript does help a lot with that. One thing that we see a lot is, you know, so like MSW is a really great way of like mocking, data requests. I find that to be like a really helpful way like if you want to actually try to like see what a component looks like with actually making a request, we do have some add-ons that allow you to use mock service worker. And sometimes some of those abstractions can actually be shared between your coding environment to, you know, if you want a offline coding environment and then also your Storybook.
Nick Taylor:Yeah.
Chantastic:So I think, you know, TypeScript is great if you have the privilege and uh, people to do TypeScript. But then also like using things like MSW is really nice too.
Nick Taylor:Yeah, mock service worker is really great. It's a nice way to really handle stuff because like before mock service worker, I remember like, like whether it's in component tests or just regular tests in Jest for example, it's like you'd be like, okay, you know, mock the fetch and then like all of a sudden you're mocking all these things and it's just like, it, you know, this way, I mean, you, you're still mocking things, but it kind of gets it out of the way and it's, it's, yeah. You know, it's, I I feel like it's a lot more manageable and, and it's using something in the platform too, which is pretty neat, so.
Chantastic:Yes. Yeah, it's really nice because a lot of those things that, that it, it feels like it's doing it at the right level, right? As opposed to like, you having to like, go in and Monkey Patch a bunch of stuff. It's like, Hey, this request is going to go out, and we're just gonna catch it, when it fails. And I, I really like that.